early US Govt 45 cal cartridges

[RCS]

Early US Govt revolver cartridges started in 45 caliber started in 1873

photo shows the 45 S&W that was used in both the S&W Schofield and Colt revolvers with the inside primer and black powder loading

second photo shows the 45 Colt black powder cartridge for the Colt single action revolver
third cartridge shows the 45 Colt Model 1909 cartridge for use in the Colt new Service revolver with the increase in rim diameter for a more
positive extraction

[Phil McGrath]

What, no .45 Auto Rim? for the 1917's?

[RCS]

Phil, The 45 Auto Rim was not a US military cartridge but introduced by Peters after WW1 to eliminate the nuisance of the half moon clips. It is a good cartridge, and I have used it and the .455 Webley cartridge. Many years ago I bought a S&W Model 1915 Type 2 surplus UK revolver chambered in 455 Webley. The cartridges were expensive and later on I had a gunsmith rechamber the revolver to 45 Colt. installed a FDL rear sight and new S&W Model 29 mainspring. I never could find a accurate load and was not happy loading 8 grains of Unique in this old revolver, reduced loads were also poor.

I noticed that the cylinder on this S&W still had the 455 cartridge throat and the conversion to 45 Colt was only at the rear of each chamber. I decided to cut down some 45 Colt cases to the same length as the 45 ACP case, load them up and test them (note the 45 auto rim will not work in my cylinder) at a shorter range for performance. The new cut down 45 Colt cartridges worked out a lot better than I thought - and are accurate

[Phil McGrath]

I didn't know that the .45AR was after WWI, I had assumed it was shortly after the introduction of the pistol. As of late I have noticed two rim thickness on the brass, one like you would expect too see on .44 or .357mag and the other super thick. I will assume that the thinner rim is for std. pressure ammo and the super think rim for higher pressure loads too keep the case supported in the cylinder. I know that the 1917 are stout built pistols, as I have seen Buffalo Bore offer new ammo with non-std. bullet weights and higher velocities.

Another question on the 1917's that I'm unsure about. Was the S&W DAO and the Colt SA/DA? and I think the original barrel length for both pistols was 6in?


P.S. looks like you found a load the pistol likes, good shooting.

[RCS]

Phil, Both the Colt & S&W Model 1917 revolvers had 5 1/2 inch barrels and both single action and double action. My father worked at Fort Sheridan during the late 1938-39 time period and told me that the MP's still carried the S&W Model 1917. I have a collector friend in Stevens Point Wisc who collects the Model 1917 rebuilds from WW2, most have been parkerized and inspectors stamps like GHD and new wooden grips. My S&W in the above post has a 6 1/2 inch barrel.

Don't know about the rim thickness on 45 auto rim, I have converted 45 auto rim to fit my Model 1889 Italian revolver that is chambered for the 10.35mm revolver cartridge. My father's friend brought it back from Italy after WW2. I have seen a cylinder wall blow-out from a hot load in a Model 1917 at the local police range a few years ago. My favorite 45 is the S&W Model 25 chambered for the 45 Colt.

[Phil McGrath]

Nice, Rosco.. I was always told that the 1917's were some stout built pistols, guess not so much? I'm wondering if they (Colt) were made from the same steal as the 1911's were and not completely heat treated because they fired a low pressure round. I wonder if the S&W is the better 1917?

[RCS]

Some shooters prefer the extra lock under the barrel on the S&W. Both of these revolvers had fixed sights, very heavy mainsprings and used the half moon clips (there are full moon available now) or the later 45 auto rim cartridge.

Don't know about heat treatment on these during WW1 production, there was also a S&W in 45 ACP made for South American export around 1937