What I Wish

[lapriester]

Is that people would stop calling AR15, AR10 style MHR (modern hunting rifles) "Assault Rifles". They are not assault riflesby design or definition. They are semi automaric, center fire, rifles no different than any such rifle used for hunting. Calling them AS rifles embraces the political agenda of the anti gun crowd that wants to ban them because the "look like" an assault weapon.

[RDS]

It all started back in the late 1970s by gun writers and the "survivalists". Guns and Ammo even put out a magazine called Assault Rifles. I even remember the American Rifleman doing articles on Semi Auto versions of military Full Auto weapons and they referred to the semi autos versions as Modern Assault rifles. It made a good catch phrase for all the "survivalists" looking for weapons to protect their families. Back then you had Colt AR15, H&K 91,93, AR-180, BM62, BM59. SIG AMT, FN FAL, FNC, M1A, Chinese AK of all sorts. and Valmet 62, UZI plus others. Sometimes we are our own worst enemy.

[m14brian]

I was a teenager in the '80s and what RDS said is spot on, I had all of those magazines, I went out of my way to get any mags that had some titles like "assault weapons". The local gun shop was full of them, it was a great time to be into guns. lapriester, while I appreciate your opinion, I must respectfully disagree, the real problem in my opinion is I wish everyone would have done more over the last 25 years to make the gun grabbers more impotent and shut them down then it wouldn't matter if these guns were commonly called killing machines, they would have no impact on us. We let their movement gain momentum and following and a perceived legitimacy. The Left and gun grabbers are so stupid anyway, black guns/high capacity mags/etc. are in all honestly defensive guns in case you ever have to defend against many attackers such as gangs or during an emergency like the L.A. riots, there is a legitimate self defense purpose for them as opposed to my FN bolt action sniper rifle which is in reality an assault weapon because it has no self defense purpose, but trust me the gun grabbers are going to go after every category of gun and smear the description to make it as hot a topic and unattractive to the general public in order to try to make them unpopular and take them away.
m14brian

[RDS]

In the sixties the anti gunners were after handguns and their buzz word was "Saturday Night Special".

[lapriester]

Then we simply will have to agree to disagree on this issue. AR's are nothing more than semi copies of true military rifles. The "progressives" and news media groups them all as the same when they are not. Personally, if I needed to grab a defensive weapon out of my safe it would be one of my 12 gauge shotguns rather than any AR I own. I don't remotely consider them my best defensive weapon nor was it on my mind when I built and bought them. Mine are all hunting and competition rifles. Continuing to call civilian AR's "assault weapons/rifles" does nothing more than legitimate the progressive argument that they are and that, no matter what anyone says, is detrimental to gun owners nationwide. We are facing an all out ban on what progressives define as assault weapons and our calling AR15, AR10 rifles AW's groups them in that catagory. If Clinton is elected and she ends up with a liberal Congress and Supreme Court you can expect full registration of AR's and, in the future, possible confiscation.

Unfortunately, even though it may wound your pride, you have to do what's necessary to educate the uninformed majority in order to save whatever rights we have. If that means swallowing our stuborn gun right pride a bit by modifying what we call our guns then so be it. Continuing to call AR15 type civilian rifles AW's feeds the frenzy that will , if progressives win, cause us to lose even more. Perhaps every "evil" semi auto rifle or shotgun we own, AR or not. Refer to what happened in Australia.

[RDS]

I could not agree with you more. You hit the nail on the head. I just pointed out who and when the term was coined. As far a shotgun for home defense the FBI has rated the shotgun as the most lethal close range weapon.

[m14brian]

Yes, Sir I guess we will just have to agree to disagree, no biggie. Not necessarily saying you are wrong and no wounded pride but just pointing out that by just refraining from using the term "assault rifles" you are saying all will be fine, while I am saying the gun control lobby being out of control is the real problem, no matter what we call them, If we call them our babies they will still go to their death bed trying to ban them, no matter what inert term we are suggested to use.
We take power away from the the gun control lobby, we get our freedom of speech back as a bonus.
m14brian

[m14brian]

Also yes, the shotgun is the most effective weapon for close range defense, to a point but that is limited to magazine capacity, I have been in two situations unprovoked by me that I have been in a terrible position forced to defend against 20+ attackers. Luckily they weren't directly after me and I didn't have to fight but there's no way a shotgun wouldn't cut it in those scenarios.
m14brian

[lapriester]

Also yes, the shotgun is the most effective weapon for close range defense, to a point but that is limited to magazine capacity, I have been in two situations unprovoked by me that I have been in a terrible position forced to defend against 20+ attackers. Luckily they weren't directly after me and I didn't have to fight but there's no way a shotgun wouldn't cut it in those scenarios.
m14brian

Brian, you would be surprised what effect a shotgun will have even in the situation you describe. A couple of rounds into such a crowd will more than often stop the rest in their tracks when they see multiple folks go down from only a couple of rounds fired from that big hole they see at the end of the barrel. You don't need many shots when there are 9 essentially 38cal pellets coming out of each round you fire. Shoot it into the pavement in front of them and they go down like bowling pins. In my police training eons ago they made it very clear that people are just naturally terrified of shotguns and it was one of the best and most effective tools for subduing not only crowds but in getting bad guys to surrender without firing a shot. I'll take a tactical shotgun with an extended magazine tube and 6-8 rounds over an AR with 20 rounds for close quarters self defense any day. And, when all is said and done, use it with less risk to innocents down range or in the next room.

[m14brian]

Yes, Sir. I remember reading when I was very young that a shotgun with 00 Buck was essentially more effective and expelled more projectiles than a submachinegun in the same amount of time, they are outstanding for self defense I agree.
m14brian

[m14brian]

I suppose with a side saddle a trained gunner could fire a few shots, then top off the tube and continue.
m14brian

[m14brian]

lapriester, thank you for sharing your LEO experience as well here, I appreciate it.
m14brian

[lapriester]

During my training we had a weapons expert do a demonstration of the effectiveness of 00 Buck compared to a 357 Magnum fired at a test vehicle from 20 yards away. Out of 6 rounds fired from the 357, using standard issue hollow point ammo, only three penetrated the passenger door and only one made it across the compartment to the driver side and was sitting on the drivers seat. Out of the nine pellets from one round of 00 Buck, 6 pellets fully penetrated and 4 were imbedded into the door panel on the driver's side. It was quite a shock to all of us. He also demonstrated that, quite often, when a handgun round is fired at a windshield from the front it will often crack the windshield, not penetrate and ricochet off. Multiple pellets of 00 will almost always penetrate. Another shock. Definitely not what you see in the movies, huh?

[RDS]

I was taught 40 plus years ago how to skip buckshot off the pavement to hit a perp hiding behind a vehicle. We were also taught skipping buck shot off pavement in a riot situation would disable multiple rioters with each shot. Tactics have since changed and I do not believe skipping buckshot is any longer taught.
The FNH SLP Mark 1 12 ga holds 9 rounds. Loaded with 3" 00 Buck that's 15 33 cal. balls going down range every time you pull the trigger, that is 135 .33 cal. balls going down range per mag tube. Switch to 3" # 4 buckshot and you putting 41 .24 cal. balls down range per pull of the trigger, that is 369 balls per mag tube load. A 12 ga. rifle slug will wreak havoc on a car.

[Phos Boss]

Anyone unconvinced as to the lethality of the shotgun at close range only need to refer to the WWI Winchester M97 Trench Gun with M1917 bayonet in trench warfare. A weapon so effective at taking life that the German High Command sought to have the M97 banned for being too mean.