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The M1s Arch Enemy: STG 44

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    The M1s Arch Enemy: STG 44

    Anyone else have one of these? Unfortunately, I can't afford to shell out the $20,000 for a vintage one, but this GSG replica is pretty darn close to the original. In fact, a side by side comparison you can hardly tell the difference between the real 7.92mm and the .22LR except bore size. Overall, a very accurate reproduction, and after 500 malfunction free rounds, I am really pleased. This is the target from a few weeks ago at 30 yards.

    #2
    A few years ago there was a semi auto being offered (in the original 7,92x33mm) but did not work out. I did notice last year ? that someone decided to build up a 7,92x33mm on the AR system. It cost a lot to have a custom barrel made-up and even more to chamber it for the Kurz cartridge. The builder never was able to develop or find a magazine that would hold more than a half dozen rounds. The targets displayed did show excellent accuracy at 100 yards.

    The whole series of MP43,MP44 and STg 44 were interesting assault rifles, the original MkB fired full auto from an open bolt and was field tested on the Russian front. These assault type weapons were developed to fill a gap between the MP40 in 9x19mm and the bolt action K98 rifle in 7,92x57mm. The port cover design was used in the Armalite designs. These weapons still show up in use in the Middle East and I saw a photo of a modern scope mounted on a MP44 being used - this was never a long range weapon. The Kurz fired a 7,92mm bullet of 123 grs at 2250 fps just a little ahead of our 30M1 cartridge

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      #3
      I found a cartridge in my "wildcat cartridge collection" that was called the 30 Kurz, this same cartridge that is in the Gun Digest "Cartridges of the World" publication. I got this cartridge some years ago from a man that was converting the M1 carbine to this caliber. Now with a 308 dia 110 gr bullet and a 33mm case length and necked down 308 Win case, this will fit into a carbine magazine and feed.
      There was an article in one of the gun magazines about such a conversion, this included a longer barrel, modified carbine round bolt and modified slide if I remember. I really did not want any part of such a conversion as I felt it was just too dangerous. I have installed the 5.7mm Johnson barrel for a friend and seems to me a better conversion as you can get 3000 FPS from a 40 gr bullet from the M1 carbine. Best in my opinion is just to leave the carbine in the original caliber Photo show a 5,56x30mm wildcat and the 30 Kurz cartridge

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        #4
        I think it is interesting to be able to convert a carbine over to 30 Kurz, but why? Especially when that many mods are necessary, and I don't think 30 Kurz is as cheap to shoot as 30 carbine. Still, an interesting concept though. I would have liked to have seen an accurate replica of the STG 44 made in this country. I also would have figured that with all of the WWII collectors here, that there would have been a market for it. Even though their "replica" wasn't exactly accurate, especially in the looks department, I still wish that HMG could have gotten off the ground with it. Oh, well. Maybe one day.

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          #5
          You can get on the waiting list for a modern semi auto FG-42 in 7,92x57mm, cost is 5K but could increase.

          Besides the 7,92 Kurz there have been other military applications to a service cartridge for a special purpose weapons. Years ago Colt used the 5,56x30 MARS for a handgun design which was interesting but died out until India decided to used another variation of the 5,56x30mm cartridge. The Indian 5,56x30mm is used in a modern sub machinegun called the INSA. Looks like a larger UZI, same magazine in the grip too.

          The 223 IMI Urban was also designed for use in a modified UZI, having a case length of 23mm, this cartridge was effective on most soft body armor during the 90's. Next to the 223 IMI Urban is a Soviet 5,45x18mm cartridge which is an original design, photo shows the 7N7 bullet which is capable of penetrating most soft body armor, be nice to find a PSM pistol too

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            #6
            Robert the article you refer to was published in Guns and Ammo magazine January 1966. The title of the article is "From 30 M1 Carbine to 30 Kurtz. It was written by James Mason. It's on pages 36, 37, 38, 39, and I have the last page but its unnumbered. Major George Nonte Jr. wrote an article titled "The Rare Art of Carbine Coddling Part III. I have the article but unfortunately the article is not dated or name of magazine noted but its from the mid 60s. In the article Nonte converts an M1 carbine to fire the German 8mm Kurtz necked down to .30 cal.

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              #7
              Thanks Rich for the information, I don't think that the novelty of these conversions lasted very long as something is going to either blow or bend. There were other conversions using 223 cases cut back and with 9mm bullets too

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                #8
                I believe the most practical conversion is the 5.7 Johnson Spitfire.

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                  #9
                  Still, very interesting to be able to perform such a conversion, but the practicality of it isn't there. Neither is cost effectiveness. 30 Kurtz is definitely more expensive than cheap 30 Carbine. I'm not sure what 30 Kurtz could be had for back in the 60s, but now it is definitely not the better option. Ballistic's speaking, I'm not sure what the pressure differences are, but I would imagine that 30 Kurtz is a higher pressure cartridge than 30 Carbine. So the risks outweigh the benefits on that conversion.

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                    #10
                    The M1 Carbine conversion to 30 Kurz was just too dangerous in my opinion. All the original issue German WW2 7,92mm Kurz was steel case and you can still find boxes that were repacked by the East Germans long after WW2. Interesting is that both the 30 Kurz and original 7,92x33mm Kurz are very easy to forum from 308 cases. My friend use to forum L C 7,62mm blanks into 7,92 Kurz, always able to sell this formed brass at gun shows to legal owners of the real weapons. Frank Barnes also developed the 30 American cartridge which had a 1 1/2 inch case length and later the two inch case length. I have a photo of the early green box RCBS forming dies that I will post.

                    More in demand years ago was the 7,62x39mm Soviet cartridges and RCBS made forming dies to form this cartridge. Some used 6,5 Carcano or 6,5 MS cases while some dealers with large quantities of the Czeck 7,62x45mm used it to form the Soviet case. Even Lake City had to reverse engineer the Soviet case from Finnish Lapua 7,62x39 cartridges. I have a photo of a Czeck 7,62x45 and a 7,62x39 which was formed from the Czeck case for the surplus market, sort of rare to find as everything got used up.

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                      #11
                      RCS
                      I have some of the 7.62x39 Lake City made ammo with the sterile headstamp. I also have 7.62x39 ammo made from steel case Czeck 7.62x45, but the bullets are cupro nickel.
                      I read years ago that ammo was modified in Calif.

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                        #12
                        Rich, I have both 7,62x39mm steel cases re-formed from 7,62x45mm, both headstamped bxn 1 53 and one with cupro nickel bullet and the other with a copper jacket. I have a photo of a box of 7,62x45mm with the early brass case (headstamped bxn 2 52*) with is not rare but difficult to find, never seen the brass case resized either. I have always enjoyed shooting the SHe VZ 52 rifles
                        in both the 7,62x45 and the 52/57 conversion to 7,62x39.

                        While on the subject of military cartridge conversions, way back when 7,62x51mm rifles first surfaced on the surplus market, there wasn't any 7,62x51mm surplus ammo around. Shooters were not going to buy commercial 308 and it wasn't quite the same either. Some dealer located a large amount of Israeli 7.92x57mm cartridges dated from the mid 1950's and like the Czech conversion, also converted the 7,92mm to 7,62x51mm. I have posted some photos of this converted Israeli 7,92mm, look closely at the extractor groove and you can spot the Israeli cartridges
                        Last edited by RCS; 11-19-2018, 12:53 PM.

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                          #13
                          Here are some photos of the Israeli 7,92x57mm cartridges converted to the 7,62x51mm for the US market.

                          left: Israeli and US 7,62mm, 2nd photo: Israeli and converted Israeli
                          Last edited by RCS; 11-19-2018, 12:50 PM.

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                            #14
                            Robert
                            What bullet was used in the converted Israeli ammo? The CZ 52 series rifles are neat rifles. About 25 years ago Sarco and IMA imported a small lot from Cyprus and or Egypt.

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                              #15
                              Rich, I did not want to pull the bullets out of the few original Israeli conversions (not that they are worth anything) but did weigh some complete cartridges:

                              L C 61 is 373 grs, L C 64 373 grs Israeli converted to 7,62x51mm is 372 grs. The Israeli will feed from M14 magazines into a M1A just like LC cartridges.

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