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    Any comments on this one?

    Just wondering if any of you watched this auction and had any comments. I was surprised that I didn't really see anything on the forums and only had a few emails. It sold for almost 5300.00 as an original rifle. Link is below;



    https://www.gunbroker.com/item/786022856

    #2
    Beautiful rifle but...... the stock should be a no trap and the front sight seal is Springfield , not Winchester.

    Rifle just sold at Rock Island Auction in Sept. for 4888.00 and Gunbroker , ended yesterday, at 5287.46 .

    Comment


      #3
      Pucci found WRA 1200001 back in the late 1990's, it was missing the stock and trigger housing, he sold it. Later WRA 1200001 surfaced again with a complete data sheet from Pucci for his newsletter "Garand Times". The new WRA 1200001 had a no trap WRA WB stock that was "buffed smooth" and WRA solid butt plate. The windage and elevation knobs were grooved with open arrows, Pucci stated that while the grooved sight knobs appear indigenous to this rifle but somewhat out of sequence and after extended phone conversations with Mr Duff, it is our opinion these knobs may be correct. One item missing from the new data sheet on 1200001 was the trigger housing data.

      This rifle has been through restoration a few times

      Comment


        #4
        I was watching this one too. For a few reasons, my impression was that it was completely pieced together.....one reason being the dulite gas cylinder looks almost brand new (I thought too new for the condition of the rifle.) The sight seals still give me some trouble and I was unsure if this one was SA or WRA. The crack in the stock was mentioned in the writeup, but it looks significantly worse than advertised when I zoom in. Had I been in serious pursuit of this one, I would have contacted some of you guys for your opinions.
        Overall, I think it is a very nice rifle with some cool/rare parts and it has the added benefit of being the first rifle produced in that serial block. Based on the data above, it also may have more originality than I thought.

        Comment


          #5
          my WRA WB looks different ?

          Comment


            #6
            RCS....I'm not really one to criticize but just based on you photo your cartouche looks like brand new. Like someone literally stamped it into the stock yesterday. An original cartouche has decades of, for the lack of a better word, muck, that builds up in each groove and line. the letters and border should be darker. It also looks like it wasn't stamped hard enough. Not criticizing, just what it appears to be. I just want to be honest.

            Comment


              #7
              Lets see of this works;



              If you go back to the link to the auction pictures you can actually zoom in on this one of the cartouche. Then you will see several glaring inconsistencies between it and the good one shown above. Indeed, the light strike at the top as well as the large flaw and dark spot of 'muck' at the W which looks to be so fortuitously located as to suggest they were intentionally done to hide those problem areas. The ord wheel is even more problematic, ... I do not give out this feature or that because I want you to do it for yourself, but I am just leading you to water, so here drink - this cartouch from the auction is a fake and it certainly appears that someone knew exactly that and tried to hide it.

              Perfect letters do not mean that a given example is fake, and these two may be a perfect example of such a thing; prefect being real and mucked up being the fake. Bear in mind also that the 'muck' down in the letters and crevices most likely happened over the course of only a few weeks or maybe months of intense use in the field, while the rest of the decades of the lives of these pieces was spent in racks doing nothing. How many times were they cleaned with dirty rags only to be just slightly less dirty but oiled and functioning. It strikes me when you look at such things and understand how actually filthy these had to be to generate such an appearance, that no matter how filthy they were, they were cleaner than the grubby tired soldier holding them - the rifle was cared for first because it was one of the most important tools they had and they needed it in order to stay alive.

              The real shame of all this is that when it was discovered it was an excellent data point for at least a substantial part of the rifle and we could have used to learn a great deal of this very difficult area. Unfortunately all of that has been ruined as nothing is certain any more and it is now little more than a cloudy partial restoration with some really nice parts and a cool serial number. Maybe somebody could pull it all together and correct it but as its own history demonstrates since it was found, it isn't an easy one.

              AMHO, best all.
              Last edited by Bodyman; 10-04-2018, 09:18 AM.

              Comment


                #8
                Gunrunner, you need to study cartouches and working with wood to bring out cartouches rather than your attempt to cast a shadow of doubt on something you really do not have any knowledge about !

                Comment


                  #9
                  Again...I was not attempting in any way to be sarcastic or to belittle the stock in your photo. I was simply stating what I saw and from my experience, the real truth. I know quite a bit more than you seem to feel I do. Anyone, and I mean anyone, can be a narcissist and call themselves an "Advanced Collector". I was doing my best to be constructive. Most everyone here are just trying to ask questions, trade advice, be friendly (that's the reason I'm here, at least trying to be). It's not perfect but it's clear to me people here are trying.
                  Last edited by RDS; 10-28-2018, 08:02 PM.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Gunrunner, you may not know who you are talking to but Bodyman and RCS are truly " advanced collectors" they both deserve some respect. They have been around a long time and are the authority on early rifles
                    Last edited by Orlando; 10-07-2018, 08:58 AM.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      I'm nobody special, just an average guy. Don't stop asking questions GR - I'll do what I can. Check your PM's.

                      Best all.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        I appreciate this posting and the photos of the cartouches as the potential learning experience it represents. With so many faked stocks out in the world I find great value in looking and learning about both the good ones and the fake ones. That is especially important on the stamps that you just do not see very often and the WRA WB certainly falls into that category.

                        Because I find it difficult to remember all the little details of each of these stamps I keep a photo library of each one on my smartphone and on a flash drive. I keep images of each in various lighting conditions as well as different levels of wear. I keep both known good stamps as well as stamps that are already identified as fake. Having the ability to Zoom in to really see details have proved to be invaluable.
                        This has come in real handy, not only when personally viewing a stock say at a gun show, but also when looking at stamps presented electronically, like on this forum.

                        The above examples are cases in point. The example from RCS is easily seen to be correct (I believe I have seen this one before) and the example seen from the Gunbroker auction is pretty easily seen to be a fake.

                        I offer this as just a suggestion so you can be prepared to verify authenticity when suddenly presented with an opportunity.

                        Rob

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