Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

I didn't call that right.

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    I didn't call that right.

    I figured about 7500.00 or so.



    https://www.gunauction.com/buy/14590448

    I guess I missed by about half? C'est la vie.

    I am betting you guys were all watching this one, and one or more of you may have actually ended up with it.

    What is my humble opinion? Sorry, direct conversions don't exist. (He did not - Oh yes he did - Yup, he said it! Oh man, its all over now, ...). I will say that if there was ever one that was going to make me want to rethink this topic, this one came close. Pretty rifle with some really neat parts, but, alas, ...

    JMHO

    #2
    Ok, I’ll bite. I’m curious on your thoughts concerning direct conversions? I am really surprised this auction sold for the amount it did. Maybe I should dig a couple out of the safe.

    Comment


      #3
      $11,300. Wow. Some people have a little extra money to throw around, I guess. Just a peripheral observation, I thought it kind of silly that this owner or a previous owner clearly went out of their way to "highlight" part numbers with white (unless its a non permanent color used to highlight P/N's for sales/marketing purposes) and by over scrubbing the stock at the inspector cartouche location.
      Last edited by Garanditis; 01-10-2018, 08:37 PM.

      Comment


        #4
        The gems on this rifle are the authentic numbered (and matching) handguards. They, alone, are worth a considerable amount of money in my opinion.
        I didn't bid, but I sure could use those handguards.
        Maybe I'll end up with that cool receiver if the new owner decides to part it out........
        Welcome to the Addiction!

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by BMS View Post
          The gems on this rifle are the authentic numbered (and matching) handguards. They, alone, are worth a considerable amount of money in my opinion.
          I didn't bid, but I sure could use those handguards.
          Maybe I'll end up with that cool receiver if the new owner decides to part it out........
          One can always hope ...

          Comment


            #6
            A lot of this is just tongue in cheek so take it all with a grain of salt. Original DC's, real WWII M1D's and real POD tanker Garands are all in about the same category to me - the mere possibility that one example may still exist has caused an inordinate amount of pain for even seasoned but wishful collectors for it to be worth the trouble, ... our newest or most enthusiastic members do not need to be abused like that and it does a disservice to the entire community. DC's specifically? What configuration is correct or not correct? Where are the known examples or the data sheets from way back when? Why haven't any turned up before now? Is there even one? Ultimately, if one does turn up, it is still a rebuild and as far as I am concerned you can treat it accordingly. If you collect rebuilds then it is the Holy Grail and it would be the center of such a collection, ... but I wouldn't hold my breath waiting to find it, ...

            Let's just run numbers. If 50,000 gastraps were made and we have, lets estimate high and say, 5% needing to be rebuilt at this early stage prior to the Wallace Barnes spring where they only swapped a barrel and the associated, that gives us a very optimistic 2500 possible examples. With a roughly 10% survival rate for just the receivers and a sub 1% survival rate for even substantially original gastraps, it means we have 2 that may have survived unmolested! If you want to reduce the number being rebuilt during those times then you rein in the amounts even further and the results can easily go down below one, which means; zero.

            On proper configuration, add to the equation that we are still talking about an era when there were myriad problems to be worked thru such tolerance stacking and we have things like an almost endless (it seems) number of variations of followers and slides, and one needs to ask just how willing would they be to actually use many of these earlier parts at all? Once you have to remove the barrel you are basically stripping it back to a bare receiver - did they save all the little parts in a pile off to the side while they re-barreled it? Heck, they were still welding guide ribs to salvage this most difficult and intensive of parts in this design, which is welding, re-machining, and refinishing over the course of how long? Did they do them one at a time or in batches? Were those little parts piles set discreetly aside for that particular numbered receiver so they could be returned to that receiver? And exactly which parts were they salvaging and which were going on the scrap pile in favor of the newer/better design which would solve any of the multiple problems that they had already managed to work through at that point? As you start to think about it logically, it becomes less and less practical on anything but the smallest of scales, which only reduces the number of possible examples ever created even further, which means the survival rate is again essentially, ... zero, ...

            Now if someone opens up a warehouse in the Philippines and finds a stash of original pre-war Garands in an original box from SA and there is also a DC in there and they have all been together and never opened since being shipped and somehow survived the fight for and fall of the Philippines, the entire war and the Japanese occupation and resistance to it, and all the years since without having been disturbed or used let alone destroyed, yea, ok, ... then I might rethink it. Until then I am going to go 'invest' a dollar in a lottery ticket - I think it is a better bet.

            I think there are way better, rare things in Garand collecting to hope to acquire than this. To me these kinds of things are prime examples of 'be careful what you wish for because they are just lined up out there to give it to you'. Like I said, JMHO
            Last edited by Bodyman; 01-11-2018, 11:14 AM.

            Comment


              #7
              Thank you. A very respectable opinion that I can agree with.

              Comment


                #8
                This rifle in question , as with any of the other ' direct conversions ', rebarreld gas traps , rebuilds, etc. , are only valued at the sum of the parts unless there is documentation showing some history of the serial number and or the rifle . The early rifles hold great value because of the parts and their rarity . I agree with you though, they are still rebuilds. Very cool ones no doubt and extremely fun to theorize over what parts should or possibly could have been used in upgrading them. Before I owned a gas trap one of these rebuilds was the next best thing for me and they are still fun to theorize over even now. Springfield did convert these rifles. They are rebuilt no doubt. Looking at it on a manufacturing or rebuilding level and the time / date determines what parts or the possibility of parts used . Many changes were occurring during mid to late 1940, from a ramp up in production ( doubling it around June ) to a change in design of several parts. This timeframe , to me, is more fun than 1941 or later because of the changes happening. I enjoy these early rifles greatly, originals , restorations, and rebuilds. They are fun without a doubt. The moral to this conversation is buy the rifle, not the story , even when dealing with supposed original rifles and above all Enjoy your collection to what you want it to be not what someone else wishes. A good friend of mine asked me once if I would still be happy with my collection if the bottom fell out of the value . No doubt I would throw up a little bit because of the value of some of the early rifles I have but Yes I would still enjoy them. Probably the best advice I can pass on......

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by Bubba1 View Post
                  This rifle in question , as with any of the other ' direct conversions ', rebarreld gas traps , rebuilds, etc. , are only valued at the sum of the parts unless there is documentation showing some history of the serial number and or the rifle . The early rifles hold great value because of the parts and their rarity . I agree with you though, they are still rebuilds. Very cool ones no doubt and extremely fun to theorize over what parts should or possibly could have been used in upgrading them. Before I owned a gas trap one of these rebuilds was the next best thing for me and they are still fun to theorize over even now. Springfield did convert these rifles. They are rebuilt no doubt. Looking at it on a manufacturing or rebuilding level and the time / date determines what parts or the possibility of parts used . Many changes were occurring during mid to late 1940, from a ramp up in production ( doubling it around June ) to a change in design of several parts. This timeframe , to me, is more fun than 1941 or later because of the changes happening. I enjoy these early rifles greatly, originals , restorations, and rebuilds. They are fun without a doubt. The moral to this conversation is buy the rifle, not the story , even when dealing with supposed original rifles and above all Enjoy your collection to what you want it to be not what someone else wishes. A good friend of mine asked me once if I would still be happy with my collection if the bottom fell out of the value . No doubt I would throw up a little bit because of the value of some of the early rifles I have but Yes I would still enjoy them. Probably the best advice I can pass on......
                  Absolutely!

                  Comment


                    #10
                    I found an early data sheet that was from the 1990's from a GCA member, it is very close to sn 8834 posted above. not a lot of data but still interesting and could be a direct conversion but difficult to document. sn 8907 modified for 7th round, barrel S-A - 8-40, internal parts correct for serial number range. Revision 0 uncut operating rod, both front and rear handguards with drawing numbers. Stock is SA GHS large wheel. Rear sight group flush nut and checkered knobs. Wallace Barnes operating rod spring.

                    It was thought at the time that this rifle surfaced that it might have been an early DCM sales rifle.
                    Last edited by RCS; 01-12-2018, 06:07 PM.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      The subject rifle did not show the butt area. The buttplate fits perfectly, so logically, is a later long throat stock.
                      That bbl would finish up my 86xxx, other wise correct restoration, that currently wears an 8-41 LL bbl.

                      I don't think I could justify the price, just for the bbl, even selling the rest of the parts, which I know I would not do...........(obsession)

                      https://www.milsurps.com/vbpicgallery.php?do=view&g=988
                      What that butt area should have looked like...
                      Last edited by Redleg; 01-13-2018, 03:06 PM.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Concerning "direct conversions" it was either last year or two years ago, I posted a short list of direct conversions on milsurps. I had received this list from Mac around 2002. On this list was serial number 5777 with a S-A-7-40 barrel. Paul responded to my post that he had found s/n 5777 still with the S-A-7-40 barrel.

                        Paul can you recall the condition of the receiver on 5777 ? did it have the 7th round correction ? what was the condition of the barrel ? Thanks, Robert

                        Comment


                        • Bubba1
                          Bubba1 commented
                          Editing a comment
                          5777 is without the 7th round mod. The barrel was reparked with chrome plated pads. What was interesting about the barrel is it has an extra cut at the muzzle end behind the threads. This feature is seen on the few 6-40 barrels that I've seen. I don't believe the barrel was installed on it in 1940 with it having chrome pads, but I could be wrong. I didn't think they chromed pads until after the war with a few exceptions of experimenting during WWII.

                          8834 Will come through my shop for transfer so I'll be able to inspect it before it goes out. It should be interesting to see. I'll post information, with the owners permission.
                          Last edited by Bubba1; 01-14-2018, 06:26 PM.

                        #13
                        Robert, could you please post that list here? Is the information more extensive than this you already posted? Thanks

                        Originally posted by RCS View Post
                        Obviously not all the early receivers received the 7th round modification as they still turn-up once in awhile. You would have to talk with Billy Pyle as to the extent of changes performed during the conversion to gas port barrels. I know some SA SPG stocks were only slightly modified in the butt plate area. You would think on the early direct conversions that all receivers had the guide ribs built up but it is certain that some were not modified.

                        some data from Mac and others showing the barrel dates on direct conversions

                        s/n 175 with S-A-6-40 bbl, s/n 256 with S-A-7-40 bbl, s/n 395 with S-A-9-40 bbl, s/n 404 with S-A-7-40 bbl, s/n 18594 with S-A-12_40 bbl, s/n 37687 with S-A-12-40 bbl
                        Last edited by Moorem1s; 01-14-2018, 01:51 PM.

                        Comment

                        Working...
                        X