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Very Early WRA Parts

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    Very Early WRA Parts


    These are authentic WRA parts of very early vintage. Not faked and not repro. 100% real deal WRA!!!

    Courtesy of a friend whom wishes to remain anonymous.

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    Welcome to the Addiction!

    #2
    Very nice. Follower rod is hard to find.

    Comment


      #3
      Great looking parts... thanks for sharing

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        #4
        Are there any records or documentation of rifles that had the Winchester hammer with the extra hole ?

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          #5
          No, none that I have seen in documentation. Educational Order Winchester Rifles were not required to have hammers with holes, that fact I have primary source documentation to support and has been published in The Garand Stand.


          Originally posted by RCS View Post
          Are there any records or documentation of rifles that had the Winchester hammer with the extra hole ?

          Comment


            #6
            What GSR was that in ?

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              #7
              GSR 106, page 13.

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                #8
                Interesting article. That would be a great rifle to inspect in person. Unfortunately it has disappeared into someone's collection and out of view. Much has been learned since 100,001 has been inspected by a few collectors. Unfortunately noone knows for sure when 100,001 was assembled. Was it first, last , or later .... unknown.

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                  #9
                  Here's a question for thought, since Winchester was to produce 500 rifles for the educational order but not required for them to function properly were they required to have them stamped with an inspectors mark or proof test.....hmmm

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                    #10
                    Need to backup on 100,001. According to the Pugley files excerpts in Canfield's book, pg. 238-241 , the educational order rifles were conpleted on Dec. 27,1940 . 100,001 was used in a grand ceremony in Jan 10, 1941 . Still hard to say as when and what parts may have been used in assembly of 100,001. Was it first or last in the educational contract. The serial number was definitely special and put aside for publicity... Thoughts...

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                      #11
                      My thoughts are what there is evidence of. The article/photo is of Jan 10th, 1941 which is the event where 100,001 was presented to the Ordnance Dept. That photo shows a hammer that does NOT have a hole.

                      100,001 is the only known original rifle in existence of the Educational Order.

                      Canfields language is a bit misleading in his book. He does not say they that ALL EO rifles were complete on December 27th, 1940 but “The first Educational Order Contract M1 rifles were completed on December 27th, 1940...”.

                      The article from The New Haven Register on January 7th, 1941 publicizing the event indicates that the “first Garand rifle to be received from a commercial assembly line, the weapon will be turned over to Maj. Gen. Charles M. Wesson...”

                      The remarks from Winchester on that day are recorded as “General Wesson, in presenting you with this gun which is #100,001, the blocks of numbers...”

                      My interpretation of these facts are that until further primary source information indicates otherwise, 100,001 is the original EO standard/pattern by default and it was originally assembled with a hammer without a hole.

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                        #12
                        Yes I've heard much debate over the hammer in 100,001. It becomes an interesting argument both ways. I've also been told the font on the hammer is different from later ones, even ones with the tooling hole, but it's all one man's word against another's unless there are photos or documentation. A very interesting piece to theorize over no doubt.

                        Where do you think the hammers with the extra tooling holes were used and why would Winchester add a manufacturing step and cost to machining the hammer if they were not originally produced with the hole. With Springfield it was easy to make changes since they were the government but Winchester would need to be paid for change otherwise it's money out of their pocket and profits. Not trying to doubt your theory just asking questions.

                        It will be great when documentation and or more original rifles surface to fill in more gaps in early Winchester production.

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                          #13
                          Interesting. So the speculation is that parts of 100,001 like the hammer without a hole were almost handmade/experimental?

                          I always took it as being assembled after the extra hole hammers were used up.

                          As they were together since made, what do the carbine guys say about the first carbine - are there any good data sheets on that one?

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Not sure where the speculation is. Handmade? Experimental? Winchester didn’t make these in a tool room. They made them on a commercial assembly line, their words. One of the biggest holdups to their production was delivery of machines, yes new machines they made these on, not a tool room. That too is a documented fact. According to the Winchester press release rifle 100,001 was the FIRST Winchester M1 rifle assembled off their line. It did not have a hammer with a hole when photographed on 1/10/1941. And there are at least two original photos from two different light angles, only one was published in GSR 106.

                            All of these are documented, no speculation.

                            By the way, in all these documents surrounding the events on 1/10/1941 have I never read that a special 100,001 rifle was made (i.e. there is nothing to support at this point that more than one 100,001 was produced). Nothing in Pugleys files and nothing in the files I have acquired that are of Puglsey, Boak and others.

                            And so we are all square, I like to put the hammer with a hole in my early Winchester’s. By preference only and no documentation yet has surfaced to support my behavior, I acknolwdge that, but documentation including the first Winchester EO show that a hammer without a hole is supported. Yeah, I think hammers with holes is a nicer touch but I can’t argue that it is correct without doubt.

                            If we want to support the thought that early Winchester’s should have hammers with holes then we are better suited finding the evidence in primary source documentation as opposed to speculative discussion. I have been working on this for quite some time now and while I have lots of good circumstantial pieces to support the hammer with a hole, I have no confirmed documentation as of yet.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              You're right, 100,001 was indeed used for the grand ceremony as the first rifle off the assembly line and, according to documentation, test fired by John Garand and Al Woodworth with tracer ammunition. If it hadnt been tested before the ceremony then Winchester would be beting everything they had on a promise and a hope everything would be perfect and right with a first time manufactured and tested component . Ceremonies are practiced, especially when you are having high officials and the press involved. What do you think would have been the outcome if they assembled an untested rifle for a contract and nothing worked. A great gun manufacturer would have been ridiculed beyond belief by the press and they would have lost a great amount of money because the press would have reported their failure and possibly lost the contract. Documentation shows rifles being completed in December 1940. The ceremony was January 1941. It probably was the first rifle off their assembly line but not necessarily the first rifle built since documentation shows rifles assembled a month prior to the ceremony. You're right in saying they weren't built in a toolroom because they weren't developing the rifle but they were assembling and figuring out manufacturing processes to be able to produce them before complete assembly line manufacturing begins. That is a manufacturing process with any product . Winchester is no exception unless they were going to let Springfield come into their plant and completely setup the assembly line . Of course much documentation is known to show the disdain between Winchester and Springfield so we can safely say that didn't happen. Maybe 100,001 was the first rifle assembled . At the very least it was in the first batch assembled. The picture shows it in January 1941 and used as the first rifle off the assembly line in January 1941 but documentation says rifles were assembled in December 1940. 100,001 definitely has a no hole hammer in it in the picture from January 1941. What is a fact is it was retained by Winchester and used to be the first rifle off the assembly line for the ceremony for High ranking ordnance officers and the public. It very well could have been the first rifle assembled by Winchester with preproduction parts , used and prototyped for production standards, and retained to be used as the first rifle off the assembly line. Documentation still leads to some speculation since it was used as the first off the line in 1941 but rifles were assembled in 1940. Speculation does not take anything away from 100,001 as being a very significant rifle. Speculation exists as to how many rifles were assembled with a no hole hammer and when and for what reason did the extra hole hammer get used.

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