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    Nice rifle.

    Wish I could grab a pic to start this post but click on the link below.

    'Tool room', 'gage gun', yada yada yada, ... let the rifle speak for itself.

    These are hard to explain, though. Gorgeous, near mint, early Winchester Garand that sold at James Julia last spring. Looks to be VERY low usage. Uncartouched but proof fired. No serial number so it is a 'narrow it down' game. Excellent wood profiles that strongly suggest WB era to me. Round wire, grooved rear handguard clip but not a grooved barrel band, both knobs checkered, ribbed rear sight cover, ... without more I cannot narrow it very well, but it could be anywhere from about 120,xxx-ish to about 150,xxx or so? And again, no sight seal on that fabulously mint looking front end.

    Unserialed? It could be a presentation rifle which would explain the lack of a cartouche - never went into service - but that probably wouldn't happen after Dec 7th so if we go there lets call it a sub 130,xxx. These exist but have been seen to be made from obsolete or out of spec or rejected parts - still cool and speak to a period just in 'cursive', ...

    Unless, it was retained by WRA in their reference collection but I believe those were all serialized, ... though at this point, who knows what they kept any more. These 'museum rifles' turn up still as John Olin sold a good bit of the Winchester reference collection in the mid 70's when he bought Winchester (as well as some of his own collection) in order fund the Winchester Museum out in Cody Wyoming. The easy ones to determine are the ones with the brass tag on the buttstock but the stories (legends) are of crates of new WWII Winchester Garands being brought out and sold, ... Heck, back then they were only 30 years old so no big deal, eh. So far I don't think there is any documentation of what John Olin sold in the 70's (but I am working on it).

    Cool rifle regardless. Have a look. (Sorry, can't figure out how to snag the pics from their cite).

    https://jamesdjulia.com/item/1642-396/

    What are your thoughts?

    #2
    Jeff, to me it was a put-together rifle. Had it in my hands, Julia allowed me to break it down at the Tulsa gun show. Other than an unserialized receiver, it was nothing for me to write home about. The receiver was early, but how early? Don’t know, no serial. That’s one of the problems with it. It could have been a receiver in the Educational Order block based on the "trade mark" stamp, compare it to your 100,075. It did not have an early follower rod with comp spring. No unique Educational Order parts that I observed, such as bullet guide, safety, etc. Winchester didn’t make Educational Order rifles in a “Tool Room”, nice marketing ploy for Julia, well played. Quite frankly, they would have rather ditched the Garand and built the G30M instead. In observing the rifle I find it odd that Winchester would have a late rear sight cover with very early checkered knobs at the same time, with an early receiver, yet no Type I rod and I'm not convinced the rear handguard was even Winchester. There exists an unserialized model shop receiver as well, puzzling all the same. I suppose that's all they are.

    Olin bought Winchester at a bankruptcy auction in 1931 after Winchester went into receivership. John Olin nearly cancelled the Educational Order contract as late as 3/5/1940 due to conflict with the Walsh-Healey act. Pugsley talked him out of it.
    Last edited by Pederson; 12-29-2017, 06:02 PM. Reason: Spelling

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      #3
      Oh nice - a real hands on! Interesting and all good stuff.

      OK, rear sights had checkered/checkered without the flat sight cover from probably 110,xxx or 115,xxx (??) to the early 15x,xxx (again ??). Round wire to me put it after about the 105,xxx to 106,xxx range (open to guesses???), so we are still ok with the 115,xxx (or less) to 130,xxx range from what I can see but you handled it so I am going to cede to you a bit more (and yes, nice shot with the 'tool room' try - I always go back to R.L Wilson and his 'gage gun' that I handled out at RIA a dozen years ago when it sold - what a crock! a chrome gun is not a gage gun!!!! Obviously Wilson didn't know clue about chrome but maybe he learned about it once in prison, ... Yup, he was a fraud and went to jail for it but his book was still on display at RIA a month ago!!!! I laughed out loud without shame - what a crook! sorry, you guys will have to google it, ....).

      On this one, the stock set looks pretty tasty but details will matter. From what I can see the details are good but I cannot see everything. EO is not reality. 'Tool room' is made up. I am still going with the possibility of slightly pre-Pearl Harbor but it isn't inconsistent with all the way to the 150,xxx's. I just think it is hard to call it a presentation or a 'lunch box' rifle once the war is on.

      John Olin sold parts of the Winchester reference collection starting in 1975. The stories are legendary but hard to verify, ...

      Pugsly and all the gun related other makers had gotten together prior to bidding on government contracts and had divvied them up between them. Yes, they each knew who was going to get what before Ordnance did. They would be in jail today but back then they sent memos back and forth and actually signed them, ... unfathomable.

      Check out the latest RIA auction item #801. Tell me what you think. Very similar to the one at James Julia but it has a serial number.

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        #4
        'Unserialized Model Shop'

        Don't know about that one but I did handle a pretty sexy early 4 digit in the 16xx range that had the number mostly sanded off and was a compilation of old and rejected parts. I don't think it had been fired and it had a MS hammer and a weld seam oprod in it!

        Pre-production Winchester stories are harder to track and even more enticing.

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          #5


          Item 801

          https://www.rockislandauction.com/de...utomatic-rifle

          Good stuff

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            #6
            Jeff, hard to say on two pics. The parts are probably worth the selling price. A 1.2M WRA should have a 1” GHD Box? No sight seal on that rifle, but should be. Many parts with the right combination of finish and color, it has that going for it.

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              #7
              Jeff, I have the reference collection book, but I expect you have it too. If not let me know and Ill look through it again. I used to have all the garands identified for easy reference. I contacted Cody once about one of the rifles sold from the collection (documented in the reference collection book) and they have no record of it or when it left the collection for what that's worth. I am interested in your findings on where and when some of the Garands were deaccessed if your willing to share at this time. Do you have the data sheet on 801?

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                #8
                Nope, don't have that one (yet). It would be great if you could check it to see if there is a reference to that serial number; 1,202,816. How many Garands were in there?

                Data sheet is pretty much spot on for the number but for no sight seal, cartouche and a late lock screw, and a neat surprise or two.

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                  #9

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                    #10
                    Jeff, 1.2m is not listed. There are approximately 33 rifles listed, some SA, a few experimental (auto fire etc). Earliest WRA (2) in the 1.3m range, a few in the 2m range. Most are 1.6m Rifle’s. 2 are no serial number and one of those has notes: This rifle was made up of scrap parts DO NOT SHOOT (#2460) the other rifle was #2458. I suspect if the brass tag was not present the snake holes would still be on the butt where it was attached. Hope this helps a little a little.

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                      #11
                      I am interested in the data sheet because I know of a rifle that is less than 3750 rifles later.

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